The Reformation *was* prima facie German Christian Nationalism. I’d guess most educated Catholics are more familiar than their Protestant brethren with the 95 Theses and the political revolution in Germany that Luther brought in.
We're certainly still living out some of the wreckage of medieval Latin Christendom in the shallowness of secular modernity. But the Reformation was, I believe, a necessary revolution in the providence of God and a righteous judgement upon unfaithfulness, though it certainly aided, by proxy, other negative consequences.
It’s my general policy to always give the OP the last word in a disagreement. May the Lord bless you abundantly, protect you from all evil, and lead you to everlasting life.
Do you think God used the Reformation for providential good too, or do you see it as wholly demonic? What is your view of the precedents for reformation within Scripture and church history?
My understanding of Luther is self-read, therefore self selective, and very Traditional Catholic. That Luther continued to hold to Catholic dogmas like devotion to Mary and the Holy Rosary. That Luther took Church properties and doled them out to the Princes of Germany for political favor, which bought him government cooperation with breaking from Rome. And that there’s some pretty hard core anti-Semitic stuff in Luther’s writings. Finally, I cannot resolve schism with Christian unity and Christ’s teachings in the Gospels, and see no graces in it. So, demonic. I will disclose that I’m a Catholic revert, left the Catholic Church for agnosticism then general evangelicalism then hardcore OPC Calvinism for many years of my adult life, only to return after being physically and spiritually unable to digest, among other things, Sola Fide, “Once saved always saved,” and “Total Depravity.” To quote C. S. Lewis, “If TD is true, and we are made in God’s image and likeness, then it could only mean we have a monster for a God.”
It sounds like you've had quite the journey. What is your interpretation of Ephesians 2:1-8?
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Beautiful, reassuring passage. If only it were the whole of scripture, we could all just pack it in. I’ve not really the time for quizzes right now, but... Of course we’re saved by faith and grace and not by works. No properly catechized Catholic could say otherwise. Yet…
“For if a man be a hearer of the word and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass.” Jas1:23 (ref 24-27)
“So faith also, if it have not works, it is dead in itself.” Jas2:17 (ref 14-26)
So, the Catholic theology is not, was never “salvation by works,” but an understanding that inaction is certain spiritual death.
And then there’s
“Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for His body, which is the Church.” Col 1:24
And what possibly could Paul be speaking of regarding “those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ?” There is nothing lacking in Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. So what’s going on with Paul in Colossians? Catholic teaching says Paul is joining his suffering with that of our Savior. The best way I can explain (I’m an engineer, not a theologian) is our suffering , joined with that of Christ on the cross, can become prayer and worship of the deepest most intimate kind. It does not bring us to salvation. It brings us to Christ and He does the rest. Although a Calvinist preacher would sooner eat glass than admit to such a concept as “Redemptive suffering”, we recently had a dear friend, an elder at the OPC congregation we attended, who offered her agonizing pain to the Lord on her deathbed. That was obviously not something she learned in Calvinist bible studies. It came to her as a comforting grace form God. Ironically, one of the triggers that had me investigating my way out of the OPC was their complete absence of a reasonable theology on human suffering. The Catholic Church has no such deficit.
Bottom line: Any Catholic worth his salt (and light) is uncomfortable trading bible verses. We are taught that, in reading scripture, context is everything. and those Protestant “sword fights” to us seem vain and disrespectful. But in the Spirit, and in good Faith, I hope this old engineer had something new or useful for your consideration. JMJ
It's interesting that you critique Protestants for "trading" Bible verses. All I asked was for your interpretation of Ephesians 2:1-8 and you responded by saying nothing about Ephesians 2 but with a stack of other passages.
Such passages are certainly relevant, of course, as Scripture helps to interpret Scripture, and indeed to verify whether what "we are taught" is truly authoritative.
But the reason I asked you about Ephesians 2 was not regarding justification but regarding total depravity. Are we dead in our sins or not? Are we objects of wrath like the rest of mankind or not? That is the basis of what we mean by total depravity. Whatever context card you want to play, It is hard to unsay what Paul clearly says there.
Protestants have no inherent issue with the redemptive power of suffering, by the way. Luther, for example, believed there is an extent to which you cannot truly understand the Bible without suffering.
The Reformation *was* prima facie German Christian Nationalism. I’d guess most educated Catholics are more familiar than their Protestant brethren with the 95 Theses and the political revolution in Germany that Luther brought in.
We're certainly still living out some of the wreckage of medieval Latin Christendom in the shallowness of secular modernity. But the Reformation was, I believe, a necessary revolution in the providence of God and a righteous judgement upon unfaithfulness, though it certainly aided, by proxy, other negative consequences.
It’s my general policy to always give the OP the last word in a disagreement. May the Lord bless you abundantly, protect you from all evil, and lead you to everlasting life.
Sometimes, policies may be reformed.
Do you think God used the Reformation for providential good too, or do you see it as wholly demonic? What is your view of the precedents for reformation within Scripture and church history?
My understanding of Luther is self-read, therefore self selective, and very Traditional Catholic. That Luther continued to hold to Catholic dogmas like devotion to Mary and the Holy Rosary. That Luther took Church properties and doled them out to the Princes of Germany for political favor, which bought him government cooperation with breaking from Rome. And that there’s some pretty hard core anti-Semitic stuff in Luther’s writings. Finally, I cannot resolve schism with Christian unity and Christ’s teachings in the Gospels, and see no graces in it. So, demonic. I will disclose that I’m a Catholic revert, left the Catholic Church for agnosticism then general evangelicalism then hardcore OPC Calvinism for many years of my adult life, only to return after being physically and spiritually unable to digest, among other things, Sola Fide, “Once saved always saved,” and “Total Depravity.” To quote C. S. Lewis, “If TD is true, and we are made in God’s image and likeness, then it could only mean we have a monster for a God.”
It sounds like you've had quite the journey. What is your interpretation of Ephesians 2:1-8?
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Beautiful, reassuring passage. If only it were the whole of scripture, we could all just pack it in. I’ve not really the time for quizzes right now, but... Of course we’re saved by faith and grace and not by works. No properly catechized Catholic could say otherwise. Yet…
“For if a man be a hearer of the word and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass.” Jas1:23 (ref 24-27)
“So faith also, if it have not works, it is dead in itself.” Jas2:17 (ref 14-26)
So, the Catholic theology is not, was never “salvation by works,” but an understanding that inaction is certain spiritual death.
And then there’s
“Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for His body, which is the Church.” Col 1:24
And what possibly could Paul be speaking of regarding “those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ?” There is nothing lacking in Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. So what’s going on with Paul in Colossians? Catholic teaching says Paul is joining his suffering with that of our Savior. The best way I can explain (I’m an engineer, not a theologian) is our suffering , joined with that of Christ on the cross, can become prayer and worship of the deepest most intimate kind. It does not bring us to salvation. It brings us to Christ and He does the rest. Although a Calvinist preacher would sooner eat glass than admit to such a concept as “Redemptive suffering”, we recently had a dear friend, an elder at the OPC congregation we attended, who offered her agonizing pain to the Lord on her deathbed. That was obviously not something she learned in Calvinist bible studies. It came to her as a comforting grace form God. Ironically, one of the triggers that had me investigating my way out of the OPC was their complete absence of a reasonable theology on human suffering. The Catholic Church has no such deficit.
Bottom line: Any Catholic worth his salt (and light) is uncomfortable trading bible verses. We are taught that, in reading scripture, context is everything. and those Protestant “sword fights” to us seem vain and disrespectful. But in the Spirit, and in good Faith, I hope this old engineer had something new or useful for your consideration. JMJ
It's interesting that you critique Protestants for "trading" Bible verses. All I asked was for your interpretation of Ephesians 2:1-8 and you responded by saying nothing about Ephesians 2 but with a stack of other passages.
Such passages are certainly relevant, of course, as Scripture helps to interpret Scripture, and indeed to verify whether what "we are taught" is truly authoritative.
But the reason I asked you about Ephesians 2 was not regarding justification but regarding total depravity. Are we dead in our sins or not? Are we objects of wrath like the rest of mankind or not? That is the basis of what we mean by total depravity. Whatever context card you want to play, It is hard to unsay what Paul clearly says there.
Protestants have no inherent issue with the redemptive power of suffering, by the way. Luther, for example, believed there is an extent to which you cannot truly understand the Bible without suffering.
May God bless you and keep you.
Holy Hypocrisy: The Distorted Gospel of Christian Nationalism
How a Movement that Preaches Peace, Justice, and Humility Embraces Violence, Hypocrisy, and Political Power
https://substack.com/home/post/p-150028413?r=4d7sow&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web